Ultra-sonic Cleaner....

For Vinyl and Record lovers: turntables, cartridges, etc.

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Ultra-sonic Cleaner....

Postby red76 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:00 pm

ImageImage
From the "newer" positive-feedback online and 6 Moons respectively.

Will be sold by Bent Audio (also distributes FAL and S&B products kit or finished)
Price?? Malamang multiple digits of $.
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:00 pm

That I have to get :!: :o
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Postby KD » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:09 pm

Anong liquid ang gamit nito? At bakit may heater pa? Baka maluto yung plaka natin.
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Postby johnmarc0 » Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:51 pm

that is neat reminds me of the ultrasonic bath ferric chloride tank used by DOST to mass produce PC boards.

JM
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Postby red76 » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:48 am

Years ago I saw a program on tv about a Japanese inventor who uses ultrasonic tech. to wash laundry without detergent. He just used plain water. Removed any type of stain and even any filthy smell as the program claims :D . Maybe this record cleaner only needs descaled water, hence no special fluid mixture?

Sir JM did u get my PM? :)

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Postby stereophile » Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:25 am

It should be good. The ultrasonic waves should be able to remove the grit in the grooves. It will probably have an alcohol based cleaner for quick evaporation.

Your records will also be sterile! :D There are ultrasonic cleaners used in the Operating rooms of hospitals to clean/sterilize instruments. What would they think if I brought my LPs for cleaning? :D :D :D
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Postby KD » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:55 am

Baog na plaka! :lol:

Baka pwedeng gawing negosyo ito. Magpasok tayo ng isa tapos mag-cleaning service para sa Pinoydiophiles.
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Postby johnmarc0 » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:11 pm

red76 wrote:Sir JM did u get my PM? :)
red76


Red,

I may have missed it out, but am checking right now, i'll pm back now.

JM
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Postby mandym » Tue Oct 14, 2003 7:35 pm

During my sane moments in Audioland, I have often concluded that the best way to clean vinyl is through ultrasonics. Scrubbing compacted crud from the grooves just does not seem to be the ticket. Expecting a flimsy fiber brush to remove stubborn dirt might be too much of wishful thinking.
In my work experience where we had to get small parts spotlessly clean, ultrasonics is always used, followed by pressure rinses. Water cavitation due to ultrasonic energy breaks up particles adhering to surfaces and the tiniest of crevices. The particles are then rinsed away by filtered DI water jets. During the ultrasonic process, you can actually observe microbubbles as the particles disintegrate. I can guess that if a few vinyl disks are cleaned in a tank, the water would turn a bit cloudy after the cleaning.
I have made up a few schemes quite similar to the one pictured but alas, ultrasonic tanks costs a lot, specially ones that can fit one record diameter.
If I can find a used cheap ultrasonic cleaner I will be able to do some experiments.
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Postby ambel » Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:44 pm

I have seen an ultrasonic cleaner that uses a pair of 300B sayang basag nga lang yun
tubo sa junk yard. Now that would be a good record cleaner.
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Postby Hyperion » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:57 am

mandym:

Can we DIY an ultrasonic LP cleaner? What would be the estimated cost of such a "cool" device?
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Postby stereophile » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:18 am

ambel wrote:
I have seen an ultrasonic cleaner that uses a pair of 300B sayang basag nga lang yun
tubo sa junk yard. Now that would be a good record cleaner.

Had it been operational, would tube rolling change the cleaning ultrasonics? :D
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Postby m_shoe_maker » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:02 am

Diba those eye glass shops have those ultrasonic cleaners :?: Pwede kaya magpalinis ng plaka sa kanila :?: :D
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Postby arnoldc » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:07 am

Hyperion wrote:mandym:

Can we DIY an ultrasonic LP cleaner? What would be the estimated cost of such a "cool" device?

may binigay si mandym sa akin na picture nung wooden tonearm nya... pogi! mounted on a VPI turntable.

kaso ala akong scanner para ma-i post :oops:
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Postby mandym » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:02 am

Hyperion,

IMHO, a complete DIY automatic ultrasonic cleaner will require an awful lot of mechanical design and money. However, a manual US cleaner will not be too prohibitive, requiring only a largish tank (for coverage of the record grooves) which will probably cost $400 to $600. The other accessory, cheap, is a common, garden variety spray bottle.
Here is what basically I imagine doing: 1. Place a record on a long dowel that fits snugly on the record hole. 2. Immerse the record up to the run-out grooves, the dowel straddling the US tank. 3. Manually rotate the record slowly until the entire disk is treated. 4. Remove the record and spray rinse with distilled water. 5. Dry with clean, lint-free cloth or paper.
Experiment with cleaning solutions, time of treatment, etc. Test equipment? A low power microscope (optional), a pair of ears (mandatory). With the proper technique I am certain the records will come out absolutely clean.

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Postby stjohn » Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:18 pm

be careful.,, though i don't want to burst your bubble, remember that these plastic discs are not homegeneous - LPs have bubbles... subjecting to ultrasonic seems 'fine'... but wait till those minute bubbles burst and trash your collection, then your cartridge.

if i can remember right, this device was once introduced in the 70's,,, i think HFN&RR had a review of sort and concluded the ff:
- dangerous to LPs when not properly used (not user-friendly)
- irritating to human ear (sayang pandinig mo - bak mabingi ka, bale wala yung nilinis mo)
- expensive
- did not offer any advantage than the 'usual' mechanical cleaning

i don't have a personal expereince.
this is material science and physics.
i think :P

cheers
egay
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Postby mandym » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:08 pm

Sorry, but the only thing I agree about the 1970's article in the HFN&RR magazine is that US cleaning is expensive. I have cleaned a lot of small, intricate objects and can assure you that even after several passes on the "usual" mechanical cleaning, much contaminants are still left over that can only be efficiently cleaned using US.
As far as bursting vinyl bubbles are concerned, weeell, I don't know. I'd like to hear anybody else speculating likewise. Seems a bit far-fetched to me. Anyway, the US energy and exposure to it can be made as experimantal variables.
Maybe the old US cleaners were too noisy or to close to the human hearing range. On one that I used, the noise is not very audible ( ultrasonic being characterized as above the audio range, operating perhaps at 40 to 50 KHz). However, my dogs and house bats head for the nearest exit :lol:

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Postby stjohn » Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:44 pm

mandym
this is not farfetched & it's not speculation - it's called probability.
did you really clean records this way?

I have cleaned a lot of small, intricate objects and can assure you that even after several passes on the "usual" mechanical cleaning, much contaminants are still left over that can only be efficiently cleaned using US.


what exactly are those 'intricate/ objects? Jewelries? Yes, they have been used with these,,, but at 40~50kHz for vinyl? I am not a believer until I see you do that with a vinyl... now I am 'speculating' that cavitation during operations could not be a 'good thing' for our vinyls.

my thoughts.
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Postby mandym » Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:04 pm

Hi Sj,
My response to your post:
1. I have not cleaned records with US. However from work experience, I have seen how well US cleans, thus it might be worth trying it on vinyl.
2. Yes, it's all probabilities. Everything, including our very existence is one big ball of probabilities. However personal biases sometimes obscure the line between high and low probabilities.
3. "Speculation" is not a dirty word. In fact it is the seed of discovery. However, if unproven or unverified it should not used as a springboard for conclusions and corollaries.
4. If you have not yet done so, it might do you some good to visit http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html to learn more about what other audiophiles are saying about US cleaning. Do a search on "ultrasound". In fact, you could probably do everyone a favor by warning them that US causes brusting of bubbles in the vinyl! Ditto the US record cleaning machine manufacturer on this thread who hopefully will then see the light and recall his product before there is an epidemic of trashed record collections and cartridges.
5. Just in case you are wondering, I worked abroad on a research team which successfully patented a cleaning process. I gained several years of experience on particle collecting, handling, analysis and microscopy. Therefore I can safely say that I have quite a bit more experience than the normal audiophile. What I've learned I will gladly share with those who keep their minds open.

Mandym.
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Postby johnmarc0 » Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:29 pm

I never took probabilities into consideration in this hobby else you will not enjoy. Also, if I ever burst a bubble in an LP expensive as the victim LP will be, am still a happy camper I learned and experienced something new.

I always consider life as a path of certainties and uncertainties not a set of probabilities and improbabilities. Probability is a tool to measure risk but decisions are based on the premise of explicit certainties.


JM
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