"Measured Performance vs. Qualitative Appraisal"

Solidstate (amps, preamps), Tweaks, Cables, New gear, etc...

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Postby strings » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:29 pm

As a consumer I like reading up on available equipment and threads like this. Some of what I read contains measurements, others don't. For those who can understand the numbers, its a big help. It's good to read about equipment that measures AND sounds good. It's a good way to create a shortlist of dream gear.

Next, its good to have WS members and other audiofools :P who share their impressions of gear they have listened to extensively and enjoyed (or not) and the synergies that worked. For those of us who cannot fully grasp what the measurements mean, our ears will of course be the final judge. But having said that, isn't there that added dimension to listening when you know that the gear you're listening to measured well? One can't help but be influenced by what one knows. Of course, not knowing the measurements does not diminish one's listening enjoyment. But does awareness of such information enhance or validate one's enjoyment? Is that necessary? Maybe, maybe not.

Our passion, however, makes it a matter-of-course to find out where the technology is headed, which measurements are considered acceptable or optimum; which gear sounds good, warm, detailed, etc.; where the music is going.

Measurements and observations must and do serve each other but not necessarily in the ratio that one would like them to. Like the chicken and egg merry-go-round, measurements give rise to observations which give rise to design changes in order for the measurements to be better which give rise to further observations which...... Which is why audio equipment will keep getting better.

Measurements and observations make audio continually evolve. Would "truth" in audio then, also be an evolving concept? This then is what makes our hobby so involving, relaxing, inspiring, exasperating. :twisted:

Fun, isn't it?
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Postby zenaudio » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:29 pm

To add a different perspective, but perhaps illuminating, I will use perfumes. After all both perfumes and audio equipment are targetted at senses, in the former the sense of smell and in the latter the sense of hearing.

Perfumes are made up of various ingredients to produce a cocktail. Today, using analytical chemistry, you can actually measure the individual content of perfumes. There is a lot of science that goes into the creation and testing of perfumes. On the other hand, there is also a lot of art. Perfume designers know what combinations work and which ones don't. And it takes a lot of knowledge to do this.

The perfume industry, dating back so much earlier than audio, and being always very lucrative, has developed a certain level of sophistication in measuring the effect of various components on our sense of smell (and the emotional response). Indeed there are "trained noses" who can detect the presence of the various notes in a perfume, ranging from "citrusy", to "spicy", to "woody", to "aldehydic". etc.. The best ones can name more than a dozen notes in a cocktail accurately. The various perfumes in the market, from Calvin Klein to Polo to Estee Lauder, can be mapped on one page on where they fall in the smell spectrum. Though different perfume houses have their own trade secrets, there is a high level of standardization.

How is this related to audio? I think it is possible, though I don't know how easy, to identify certain people who can have "trained ears" and achieve a similar level of sophistication in characterizing sounds and how they combine to produce pleasant results. Not everyone has the same level of sensitivity to smells and can become an "expert nose"; similarly in audio, perhaps not everyone can be an "expert ear". However, almost everyone reacts to some degree to pleasant or unpleasant smells and have preferences in perfumes; likewise, everyone reacts to some degree to pleasant and unpleasant sound and has a preference. In perfumes this distinction (experts vs non-experts) has been accepted; in audio every aspiring audiophile thinks that he is a qualified "playback designer." Perhaps this is the romance of being an audiophile, the thought that one is designing for a market of one -- himself (or herself). Audio is more "participative" in that the audiophile can indeed design for himself. The trick is that, like the perfume designer, he also needs to know the ingredients (equipment characteristics) he is working with and how to combine them.

Perhaps audio is still in its adolescence where standard physics-psychoacoustic characteristics still need to be defined (the equivalent of citrusy, spicy etc) to be used as handles in designing sound from a combination of audio equipment. In the perfume industry, science and sense have been calibrated with each other. In audio maybe that still has to come. Some may be starting, who knows they're close or already there.
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Postby conspicuous » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:01 pm

zenaudio wrote:...Perhaps audio is still in its adolescence where standard physics-psychoacoustic characteristics still need to be defined (the equivalent of citrusy, spicy etc) to be used as handles in designing sound from a combination of audio equipment. In the perfume industry, science and sense have been calibrated with each other. In audio maybe that still has to come. Some may be starting, who knows they're close or already there.


interesting analogy and useful. this last paragraph though is what caught my interest visavis the subject of this thread. in the 1920s, scientists ignored albert einstein and even ridiculed his theory of relativity. why? because there were no known measurements to prove it. however as time went by and scientific instrumentation became more sophisticated then slowly the scientific community realized the genius in einstein and how he perceived the universe. sometimes too, it is not just the sophistication of the measuring device but also the wisdom to know what it is that needs to be measured and how it corelates to the phenomena of interest. :)
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Postby JackD201 » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:47 pm

Mukhang natumbok ni Strings ah. Truth really does evolve, Doesn't it? :D

Excellent Analogy Sen! Kaya pala ang bango bango mo raw. Hehehehe.
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Postby tony » Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:12 am

at the end of the day it all boils down to the individual concerned...

listeming to music is an experience...and each time is unique..once past it, never comes back....i remember the time i went to the lobby of the Manila Penn many years ago to listen to the Phillippine Philharmonic
Orchestra play Nutcracker Suite by Tchaikovsky...

there are too much variables to contend with...

so if you do not understand all the technical jargons floating around, then just listen to the music and enjoy.... :D
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Postby zenaudio » Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:44 pm

JackD201 wrote:Excellent Analogy Sen! Kaya pala ang bango bango mo raw. Hehehehe.

He he, courtesy of Pleasures for men by Lauder :D
Pag mabango sa mrs., can get away with audio hobby :lol:
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Postby Oldfogey » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:00 pm

Having read through this thread, I'm impressed by the depth of knowledge and eloquence of the members who've posted.

I'm firmly in the "qualitative appraisal" camp myself. IMHO, if it sounds good to my tin ears, it is good. I don't attach much importance to measurements, primarily because they get in the way of a good bottle of wine! :D

Enjoy your music this holiday season! Cheers!
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Postby JackD201 » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:08 pm

Oldfogey wrote:Having read through this thread, I'm impressed by the depth of knowledge and eloquence of the members who've posted.

I'm firmly in the "qualitative appraisal" camp myself. IMHO, if it sounds good to my tin ears, it is good. I don't attach much importance to measurements, primarily because they get in the way of a good bottle of wine! :D

Enjoy your music this holiday season! Cheers!


Idolfogey,

May we request a list of wines that result in the most musical enjoyment? A purely qualitative assesment if you please. :lol2:
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Postby Oldfogey » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:10 am

IdolJack,

Rather than list the wines, I would humbly direct you to Bacchus at Makati Shangri-la, Premium Wine Exchange and Terry's Selection at Pasong Tamo Extension, or any Wine Depot Branch where there are people who are much more knowledgeable than myself. :)

Sometimes a fine bottle is the best audio tweak. That said, I've sent you a PM with some of my faves :twisted:
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Postby jadis » Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:34 am

JackD201 wrote:
Oldfogey wrote:Having read through this thread, I'm impressed by the depth of knowledge and eloquence of the members who've posted.

I'm firmly in the "qualitative appraisal" camp myself. IMHO, if it sounds good to my tin ears, it is good. I don't attach much importance to measurements, primarily because they get in the way of a good bottle of wine! :D

Enjoy your music this holiday season! Cheers!


Idolfogey,

May we request a list of wines that result in the most musical enjoyment? A purely qualitative assesment if you please. :lol2:



An old audiophile friend of mine told me many many years ago that 'drinking' and THEN listening enhances the 'listening exercise' many many times more.... I personally haven't tried that, be it wine or whiskey... On one occasion, that same friend told me, that one night he took a few shots of 'hard' drink, and he got knocked out and before he knew it, it was the morning of the next day that he regained consciousness with all his TUBE ELECTRONICS still turned on! :shock: His main comment was : " Bilib ako sa tibay ng Jadis amps, maski 24 hours naka-on, ok pa rin...." :) So I guess the lesson here is, maghanap kayo ng matitibay na tube amps pag-iinom kayo. :lol: :lol:
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Postby av_phile » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:45 pm

What we listen to at home are called home playback gears that were made possible because audio engineering was able to apply the numbers of an exacting science after they have quanitfed and measured the phenomenon of sound propagation. Similarly, musical performances were captured using the wonders of technological recording breakthroughs made possible because those engineers understood to some extent how to measure and capture the phenomenon of sound propagation. Without those numbers behind design specifations, there'd be nothing to listen to at home, unless one invites the Ryan Cayabyab and the San Miguel Philharmonic for a performance in your living room.

Now whether those numbers behind a home playback gear reproduces the sonics that allow the listener to experience the heights of audiophilic peasures or not, that's entirely a subjective assessment valid only to the listener. The comparison is really strained. Objective measurements and qualitative assessment belong in entirely separate worlds. One belongs in the world of engineering, the other belongs in the world of personal listening bias.
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Postby rascal101 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:11 am

Agree. As an example, for amplifiers engineering is concerned with making sure that the output is basically just gain multiplied by the input. It doesn't concern itself whether it will sound good or not. Should it be the job of engineering to consider whether it will sound good? If at engineering you design an amplifier with very good technical specifications and play a CD or vinyl and it doesn't sound good, should the amplifier be blamed or should the recording company?
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Postby quarterback » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:30 am

My two cents:

Measurements and subjective listening both count:

1. From the designer/s' perspective, measurements validates whether the finish products meet design parameters. It also gives feedback to the designer/s whether the assumptions made during the product design stage translates to the intended results.

2. From the consumer point of view (at least to me) measurements/specifications help narrow the choice considering the available products at different price levels. Measurements also validates the manufacturers' claims as specified in the literature.

But having said the above in my case, it is still the subjective listening that counts because music to me is an emotional experience which can't be measured.
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Postby ichabod » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:49 pm

No matter what is said, music should sound better without a measure of wine or alcohol. Intoxicatingly better no doubt with it! And some reviewers use both experiences! Even singers and musicians do! Which?
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Postby Oldfogey » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:50 am

Actually, it's the music and conversation that make the wine taste better. :D

Happy New Year!
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Postby Voltraizer » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:00 pm

Oldfogey wrote:Actually, it's the music and conversation that make the wine taste better. :D

Happy New Year!

or is it the wine-music combination that makes the conversation better and converted into loud laughter due to intoxication
Happy BOOM BOOM!!!! :D :D :D :D
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Postby Oldfogey » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:18 pm

or is it the wine-music combination that makes the conversation better and converted into loud laughter due to intoxication
Happy BOOM BOOM!!!!

That works too, even better I suppose :D Enjoy your friends, wine, and music!

Have a great one!
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Postby keith » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:09 pm

Hey, why does it have to be limited to wine? Scotch whiskey/single malt, brandy or beer would be good too. :D

Happy New Year!!!
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